The Lie Car Dealers Tell Every Single Day

"SteveLehto" (stevelehto) 02/23/2015 at 13:00 • Filed to: None

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One of the most common things you will see in automobile purchase agreements is the statement that there are "No Warranties – Express or Implied." The problem is that a seller cannot disclaim an express warranty. Every car sold today in the U.S. will come with express warranties, despite this false disclaimer.

Anyone who has ever bought a car from a dealer has seen a purchase agreement smothered by boilerplate language. Not everyone reads these documents which is a shame, since they often address the buyer's legal rights. Here is an example I grabbed from a file sitting on my desk.

You will notice the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! but see how it is followed by disclaimers of "all warranties, express or implied." As-is disclaims the implied warranty of merchantability so why disclaim it again? And they are disclaiming express warranties too? This type of language confuses a lot of people. And much of that confusion is sown by car sellers who want the waters to be muddied. Many car buyers will later see this language and assume they have no cause of action against the seller because of it.

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This type of case is not litigated often, primarily because the amount of money at stake in a used car sale wouldn't make it cost-effective to hire an attorney. But, there was a recent !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! which illustrates this point beautifully. For our purposes, be aware that you can cross out the word "helicopter" and write in "car" and get the same result with these facts. This is because this area of the law comes from the Uniform Commercial Code which governs the sale of goods. Goods can be cars, helicopters, sewing machines and so on. Bought a defective sewing machine? The UCC applies.

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In 2012, a man named Perry Luig agreed to sell his Bell helicopter to North Bay Enterprises. They struck a bargain and the contract contained two interesting clauses. The first was that the helicopter would be delivered with a "current Certificate of Airworthiness." The second clause that mattered said, "At the time of delivery Purchaser agrees to accept the Aircraft in an 'as is where is' condition. (NO WARRANTY.)" Notice that it said both "as is" and "NO WARRANTY" in nice capital letters, so no one could miss it.

Luig delivered the helicopter to North Bay and it was inspected. The helicopter appeared to be in perfect operating condition for a device that was more than half a century old. But it didn't have a current airworthiness certificate. North Bay indicated that it would be happy to take the helicopter if Luig provided the certificate. Luig pointed to the "as is" language and told North Bay to get lost. In legal terms, that meant a Federal judge would explain how this all shook out.

The judge noted that "as-is" merely meant there was no implied warranty of merchantability. But the seller could not disclaim an express warranty. To allow it to do so would be nonsensical. Express warranties are made by the seller at the time of the sale: How could the seller both make and disclaim a warranty in the same transaction? Short answer: They can't. ("[U]se of the two words 'as-is' has never been held to automatically bar an action on an express warranty.") And here, the promise to deliver the helicopter with the certificate was an express warranty.

So, the court said North Bay would be compensated for its damages: The amount of money it would take to get the airworthiness certificate for the helicopter.

The same is true with cars. If a car seller could "disclaim" an express warranty, they could deliver a different car to you than the one described in the purchase agreement. For example, there are four express warranties in the snippet below. Can you find them? (Yes, I lopped a couple digits off of the VIN here but the original has all 17.)

After all, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

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In practical terms this means that you need to be aware what "As is" means – and what it does not. If you see the language purportedly disclaiming "all express warranties," know that you can ignore it. It's nonsense, inserted by an over-reaching car dealer. And as you negotiate, whenever the seller tells you anything specific about the car, ask that the statement be included on the purchase agreement. The transmission is new? Write it down. The vehicle is a "one-owner" car? Write it down. The car has never been in an accident? Yes, write it down.

Of course, many car sellers will tell you they cannot write these things down on the purchase agreement. Why? They'll make something up. Because they know that if they write the term down on the agreement, it becomes enforceable, despite the nonsensical "No express warranties" language. And why do they keep using that language when it makes no sense, legally? Because they know it confuses people and confusing car buyers is in their best interest.

Follow me on Twitter: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

Hear my podcast on iTunes: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

Steve Lehto has been practicing law for 23 years, almost exclusively in consumer protection and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! He wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

This website may supply general information about the law but it is for informational purposes only. This does not create an attorney-client relationship and is not meant to constitute legal advice, so the good news is we're not billing you by the hour for reading this. The bad news is that you shouldn't act upon any of the information without consulting a qualified professional attorney who will, probably, bill you by the hour.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 13:04

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I prefer my posts on car law to have an express warranty that they're authentic Steves and not a cheap imitation. This post would seem to be as advertised.

SteveLehto > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 02/23/2015 at 13:05

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I was about to try and disclaim something but I see it is not needed. Thanks!

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 13:07

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You've disclaimed attorney-client relationships, so I think that means the post is as-is.

SteveLehto > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 02/23/2015 at 13:08

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But it's a moot point since it has no faults.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 13:09

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I don't like the interior color, but it was a steal.

thebigbossyboss > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 13:27

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Not really related, but I saw something you would appreciate.

http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/attention-stev…

SteveLehto > thebigbossyboss 02/23/2015 at 13:29

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Nice. Is that one of Chrysler's? I know they take them to shows from time to time. (They had it at Amelia Island not long ago, for example).

thebigbossyboss > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 13:31

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It is indeed one of the Chrysler turbine cars!!

SteveLehto > thebigbossyboss 02/23/2015 at 13:34

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I meant is it one of the two still owned by them? There are others it could be - since some of the museums will lend them to one another.

thebigbossyboss > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 13:38

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Oh sorry. They did say where it came from but I was too amazed by it to notice which one of the nine remaining it was. I checked a few articles on the show and they didn't say where it came from, so I guess it shall remain a mystery!!!

thebigbossyboss > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 13:43

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Edit: I have found the info!! It is indeed one of the ones from the Chrysler collection!!

The Chrysler Turbine program began in 1954 – in the supersonic jet airplane age -and lasted until 1981," said Brandt Rosenbusch, Manager of Historical Vehicles – FCA US. "Like today, the company was exploring alternative propulsion solutions and to prove the engine's flexibility, even ran them on perfume and alcohol – aside from the 'standard' JP-4 Jet Fuel. We have not shipped the car to Canada in the 25 years I have been here."

http://www.allpar.com/news/index.php…

SteveLehto > thebigbossyboss 02/23/2015 at 13:47

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Cool. I do wish Brandt would read my book though. The program started in 1953. He often gets little facts like that wrong.

But it's cool you saw it. Did they fire it up? It is one of the few that still run.

thebigbossyboss > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 13:52

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In another article I saw he said he wouldn't risk it because any failure is terminal. Which is disappointing, but it was still so awesome to see!! Is your book still for sale? I might try to get it for my brother whom is a mechanical engineer he said "I have no idea how a turbine car would work"....we must educate him!!

SteveLehto > thebigbossyboss 02/23/2015 at 13:53

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Yes, the book is on Amazon (hard cover and paperback I think). They do fire it up from time to time but at this point, repairs would be costly.

Jordaneer, The Mountaineer Man > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 13:57

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I make no warrenties, expressed or implied, that this is actually Jordaneer who is posting this :P

thebigbossyboss > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 13:57

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I could only imagine, you'd probably have to get parts custom made. I can see why you wrote a book about it, it was literally the coolest vehicle at the show in my opinion, and at the Toronto Auto show, there is several thousand vehicles.

albo > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 13:58

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rg

SteveLehto > thebigbossyboss 02/23/2015 at 14:00

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Yes. Now, all the parts COULD be made. It would just involved finding the right people and paying them. I actually have schematics for the engine - gigantic blueprints which are about the size of the Shroud of Turin. So, it is doable.

Christopheroni > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 14:01

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The only thing shadier than buying a new car from a dealer, is buying a used car from anyone!

thebigbossyboss > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 14:01

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Just not cheap!

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 14:06

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Does this disclaimer apply to private sales also, or just dealer sales? If there is factory warranty remaining, should that be written into the contract when selling to a private party?

Vin > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 14:06

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!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Salesperson: "Hi, how can I help you today?'

YOU DO NOT WANT TO HELP ME, THIEVING SCUMBAG.

Just wear your damn mask... > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 14:07

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I'm confused by the helicopter example. The terms of the sale in that case were that the helicopter be delivered with a certificate of airworthiness. If the seller did not provide the agreed to certificate, that is a breach of the sales agreement, not an example of "as-is". Am I wrong?

SteveLehto > Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom 02/23/2015 at 14:08

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Private sales are different. There are no implied warranties there. A factory warranty - since it comes from the factory - would not be affected by your purchase agreement, as far as I know.

wkiernan > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 14:08

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However, that comment was an example of that "salesman's talk" which is specifically excluded from the implied warranty of the Uniform Commercial Code.

fsdks > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 14:09

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Good information, again Steve, for the general public. I've actually laughed at a dealer who had this language in a sales agreement with me. I pointed out the fallacy of disclaiming express warranties (like you write, these disclaiming is usually done in ALL CAPS). Salesman just looked at me with a blank stare. I then crossed-out all of the disclaimers in the sales agreement, initialed the crossed-out language and hand wrote "No Implied Warranty" at the bottom of the sales agreement. Then I signed the agreement and handed it back to him. He looked at me, stood up and walked over to the finance manager who asked me to come over to his little office. I did, he asked me what I was doing, I pointed out that I am a lawyer and that the agreement as drafted, was wrong and he could accept my modifications and get paid in cash that day for a truck or I'd just walk out the door.

I ended up, 5 minutes later, writing a check after the finance manager signed the modified contract.

It was, I think, a kinda dick move on my part, but at the time I was a new lawyer and contracts like that erked me. Not so much anymore because I just don't give a shit about these things as I get older.

SteveLehto > Just wear your damn mask... 02/23/2015 at 14:09

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Yes.

The court specifically said this was not a breach of contract case but a breach of warranty case. (Although the distinction is not as important - the main difference being the remedy).

The contract was for the sale of the helicopter. The certificate was ancillary to the sale (and the sale was the subject of the contract).

SteveLehto > fsdks 02/23/2015 at 14:11

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I've signed these documents before but I have also given the salesman a hard time. I ask simple questions about what does this mean and what does that mean? Two or three questions in and they're stumped.

drdude > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 14:11

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The 4 things as I see them:
1. the car is a 2003 model year.
2. the car make is a Jeep.
3. The car model is a liberty
4. The serial number is xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

If any of these conditions are not met (the car turns out to be a 2002 for example) then the contract is void.
Am I correct?

SteveLehto > drdude 02/23/2015 at 14:13

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You are 100% correct.

Thanks for playing!

drdude > Christopheroni 02/23/2015 at 14:15

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I have a nice car for parts from craigslist. no title. cash only please.

will trade for things that go bang, pitbulls, mud-tires or boats

drdude > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 14:16

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BUT STEVE?!?! WHAT DO I WIN?!

TheAutoRules > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 14:18

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Thanks Steve. Another interesting nugget from what usually seems like a bunch of nonsense.

Nobi > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 14:18

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Fixed it for you:

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matt miller > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 14:18

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i love this shit.

chucchinchilla > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 14:19

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To get this straight, if I buy a car I should...

-Have specific details about the car written into the contract (no accident, new parts, one owner, etc.)

-Ignore the "no express warranty" clause because a simple statement of fact (a 2013 Ford Taurus) is an express warranty thus the language is bogus

..so that if any of those statements of fact turn out to be wrong (it was two owners, it was wrecked, that new part isn't new), I have some legal ground to stand to force them to make it right?

T off the New > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 14:20

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Definitely confusing

SteveLehto > chucchinchilla 02/23/2015 at 14:20

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Yes.

But you will run into trouble when you suggest writing those things into the contract. Most sellers will refuse. Which is how you will know they are lying to you.

How you proceed at that point is up to you.

Coty > Vin 02/23/2015 at 14:20

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I hate this site some days.

straz85 > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 14:27

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Your articles make me want to go buy a car just so I can use my new found knowledge.

Vin > Coty 02/23/2015 at 14:27

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But do you hate it some nights as well ?

SteveLehto > straz85 02/23/2015 at 14:28

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Thanks for the note. I appreciate it!

945T > Vin 02/23/2015 at 14:28

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Yes they do. They want you to tell your friends and family and sell more cars.

Coty > Vin 02/23/2015 at 14:30

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I'm usually not on here at night.

Justbrowsing > T off the New 02/23/2015 at 14:30

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BACK SEAT, MIDDLE, WITH MY FEET ON THE HUMP!

kyngfish > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 14:31

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Interesting and informative post. As someone who is currently buying a car and loves to troll the salesmen with any minute point, this is going to make the process even more fun. Thanks!

Speedmerchant > Vin 02/23/2015 at 14:34

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I guaranty you've lied more to a salesperson. All customers are cheap fuck heads. Kinda the same thing sport. How do ya like the big brush?

Pending Approval > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 14:35

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For sure. at a shop I worked at, ALL of our used vehicles had a 1 year warranty. We NEVER spoke of it, and basically, if you read the fine print enough you would have seen it, but no one does. Basically you could have bought a car from us, reved it to the moon and blown the motor right in the parking lot, and we would have put a new engine in it.

Pending Approval > Pending Approval 02/23/2015 at 14:37

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also note, if you wanted a warranty, we would have been more than happy to sell you an additional one as well, at a huge mark up of course.

Big Block I-4 > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 14:37

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Great little tidbit there, will keep this, as well as most of your other topics in my back pocket. But I am in no way guaranteeing that I will always be wearing pants with back pockets full of paper. My pants are sold as-is.

SteveLehto > Big Block I-4 02/23/2015 at 14:38

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That's what you get for wearing pants.

Vin > Speedmerchant 02/23/2015 at 14:38

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Oh okay.

digitalsandwich78 > fsdks 02/23/2015 at 14:39

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The amazing part is, you got the dealership to accept your check. I've always paid cash for all my vehicles, but the dealerships usually wants a certified check. (Well, at least for new cars, used car dealers don't seem to mind checks)

Was it a personal check, or something under a business name?

aimawayfromface3 > wkiernan 02/23/2015 at 14:41

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But there is no sale taking place here since the article was free.

digitalsandwich78 > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 14:42

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Follow-up question:

If there's a honest typo in the VIN, does it still void the contract?

HeyYouGuys > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 14:43

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The helicopter example you posted was most likely ruled in favor of the buyer because the seller originally promised it to be delivered with a "Current airworthiness certificate", which as you described, it was not. The sale was not disputed over a mechanical malfunction or the condition of the craft- it was disputed over the very description of the goods being paid for.

The rest of your post may be true and accurate, but this example is a poor one.

SteveLehto > digitalsandwich78 02/23/2015 at 14:43

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An honest typo would not since it wouldn't have been the intent of the parties to buy/sell the incorrect VIN.

digitalsandwich78 > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 14:49

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If the contract said one owner, and it turns out there were two owners, what claim can you actually make? Yes, its a lie, but it doesn't make the vehicle any less valuable. KBB doesn't ask how many owners when it estimates the value of the vehicle.

Short of having the seller buy back the vehicle (and paying associated fees), I don't know what kind of damages you can claim.

GTAwheelman > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 14:49

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Just so you know, I read your articles in Saul Goodman's voice.

sklooner > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 14:50

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So what about the Dodge Neon I bought with turbo, Type R. Vtec, V8, M5, AMG and Kompresor badges on the back ? Am I covered or should I call Saul ?

AeroStang > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 14:50

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i love you.

kyngfish > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 14:51

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Out of curiosity, there's a guy here in Miami who sells luxury cars on Autotrader - used - with nearly the same description for each one "single-owner, always garaged, non smoker, etc. etc. etc.", the cars are usually 4-6 grand cheaper than everyone else, so I figure this guy is being shady about something. Assuming I risk getting into some kind of negotiation with him, what do I need to look for, salvage title I guess would be pretty obvious, wrecks kept off the books? If I were able to prove any of those things, could I even, realistically, make this guy accountable? He seems like he's a private seller that just gets his hands on nice cars and sells them out of a storage facility.

vdfxgbgfb > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 14:51

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Start working at home with Google! It's by-far the best job I've had. Last Wednesday I got a brand new BMW since getting a check for $6474 this - 4 weeks past. I began this 8-months ago and immediately was bringing home at least $77 per hour. I work through this link, go to tech tab for work detail.

———————————> http://www.jobs-mill.Com

SteveLehto > digitalsandwich78 02/23/2015 at 14:52

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Ahhh, that is a different question. Determine liability first, then damages. Number of owners may not matter, I just threw that in because it is measurable.

But I agree - on that alone (if that was the only issue) you may not have a great case. I was merely trying to make a point. (I still be they'd refuse to write it on the purchase agreement, though.)

SteveLehto > AeroStang 02/23/2015 at 14:53

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And I, you.

Sagaris > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 14:54

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Does it makes sense that they wont write those down because they are getting that information for a 3rd party, such as carfax, and don't want to be held responsible for someone else's claim? Should you walk away from a deal if they wont write it down? Will any dealership write that down?

Ry-bones, FiST pilot > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 02/23/2015 at 14:55

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Yeah, but you can save a lot of money using Stephen Letho.

SteveLehto > kyngfish 02/23/2015 at 14:55

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Or he's a curbstoner. Some of those things are hard to measure but the one-owner thing is not. Your best bet is to avoid dealing with him. If he ripped you off and you had a case, he probably isn't collectible (and that's assuming the case was worth bringing, considering the cost).

SteveLehto > Sagaris 02/23/2015 at 14:56

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In my opinion, they shouldn't TELL you something unless they know it is true. If they got it from Carfax, then they should say, "This is what Carfax says."

Most dealers will refuse to write this stuff down. I suspect it is because untruthful statements aren't damaging until they are written down.

Ry-bones, FiST pilot > drdude 02/23/2015 at 14:58

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I've got a 3-legged pit mix, 2 mud tires with 20% tread, and half a canoe. Do we have a deal?

vdfxgbgfb > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 15:00

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Start working at home with Google! It's by-far the best job I've had. Last Wednesday I got a brand new BMW since getting a check for $6474 this - 4 weeks past. I began this 8-months ago and immediately was bringing home at least $77 per hour. I work through this link, go to tech tab for work detail.

———————————> http://www.jobs-mill.Com

Tohru > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 15:00

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Another great article. Taught me something that I didn't know.

SteveLehto > Tohru 02/23/2015 at 15:00

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Then my work is done.

Thanks!

detailer4u > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 15:01

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No time for pants ............... creativity flowing!

HiramJahoovafatJr > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 15:02

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... I like the article as-is.

jonny quest > Speedmerchant 02/23/2015 at 15:03

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That's right speedmerchant..I was coffee/time/bullshitted all the time.See my other comments on another one of Steves posts..

fsdks > digitalsandwich78 02/23/2015 at 15:03

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Personal check. They'd accepted a trade-in of mine (VW Golf 1.8T) that was already paid-off so the check was only for 3 or 5 thousand (I can't recall) for the Dodge Dakota. All my other car purchases have been bank transfers but this buy was a long time ago.

FWIW the Dakota was soooo much more reliable than that Golf. Other than regular maintenance the Dakota never saw the inside of a shop for the 5 years I owned it unlike the Golf; a vehicle that spent weeks at a time at the VW dealership. I was on a first name basis with dealership service manager. I got rid of it as soon as the 24 month new car warranty ran out.

kyngfish > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 15:12

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I haven't dealt with him and I don't plan on it. I was just curious as to what it's like to take something so minor and someone so minor to small claims court and whether any of this stuff is really realistically something you can get "justice" in or if it's a case where these people just operate on the fringes exactly because he is sure no one can really touch him. What's a curbstoner.

EvilSuperMonkey > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 15:12

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Forgive my ignorance but is an express warranty basically just a quality of the good (your examples of a one-owner car, new transmission, etc.)? What's the difference between that and an implied warranty?

EvilSuperMonkey > Vin 02/23/2015 at 15:14

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It's actually "what can I do to get you out of here in ______ today?" There has never been a time when I was the barrier to purchasing a vehicle. I'll take it for $5 if you really want to get rid of it.

kyngfish > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 15:14

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Looked it up. This dude is almost certainly a curbstoner.

SteveLehto > EvilSuperMonkey 02/23/2015 at 15:17

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If you read the embedded article, I explain what an implied warranty is. An express warranty car arise several ways but the most common is a statement by the seller which specifically addresses or describes a quality of the goods (and the warranty is that the goods will meet that description or specification).

Maxaxle > drdude 02/23/2015 at 15:36

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A hand-rolled round of applause.
*slow clap*

abgoodyear > kyngfish 02/23/2015 at 15:36

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Why would you troll the salesperson?

Mustafaluigi > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 15:39

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Isn't it also the case that "As is" does not necessarily mean that you can hide a known issue at the time of sale. Like for instance person says car is running perfectly no issues with the engine so you buy site unseen. When you first start it up it doesn't run or has a hole though the block. Just because they said As is, it doesn't mean they can deliberately hide issues from you or lie about its condition.

I'm not saying its smart to buy without inspecting the vehicle but in the case you do.

Christopheroni > drdude 02/23/2015 at 15:39

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Do you have the title? Will you trade for my lawnmower with a blown engine? It's in mint condition, just needs a new engine and possibly a blade. Some rust.

SteveLehto > Mustafaluigi 02/23/2015 at 15:42

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You are correct. Too often they think it is a Get Out Of Jail Free card. I've had a dealer claim they weren't liable for odometer fraud because of an As-Is sale. (Which is so wrong it is funny.)

EvilSuperMonkey > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 15:44

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Thanks I'll take a look at the article as well.

Pinkslip > digitalsandwich78 02/23/2015 at 15:48

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KBB is only one source for determining the market value. Comparable models and auction history are others. And how many owners a car has had does affect the resale. If you were looking at two identical cars, except one car had two owners and the other had six, which would you prefer to buy? Multiple owners (especially over a relatively short time frame) makes people question why the car wasn't worthy of long-term ownership.

But in my experience working in dealerships, a dealer won't add language to the contract unless it's something simple like a promise to provide a service (a car wash, for example). The dealer may not be able to say with 100% certainty that the car they took in on trade or bought from the auction does, in fact, have only one owner or no accidents, as Carfax states.

They should be okay stating in the contract any work they have personally performed (new transmission, etc).

Dr. Strangegun > Christopheroni 02/23/2015 at 15:50

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The greenish muddled mess that remains at the bottom of the mojito glass once consumed, that is also 'mint condition'.

kyngfish > abgoodyear 02/23/2015 at 15:53

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The entire process is laughable. The sales-person's role is usually fairly outdated. I'll give you an example:

I'm looking at a GTI for my wife. When I ask the salesman pretending to be my friend what the price is, he says 29. When I say I have a quote from Truecar for 26.8, (also a fake price, I can probably get it for lower, TrueCar is also in cahoots with the dealer network) he goes to the sales manager who grudgingly gives me that price, but he takes on a dealer fee for 1100 bucks. When I ask them to break it down, it's a mix of legitimate fees and then, 800 bucks for "dealer fee" which is basically profit they are sneaking into the price, and an electronic fee for 98 bucks (marked up from 12 - the state cost for filing electronically - I don't mind them making their margin, but 800%?!). My goal is to get to closer to 25. Either way, I'm in no rush, and I don't NEED the car.

Basically, he's turned it into a game of how much profit they can sneak into their price by selling me into a car I'm already fully informed about and I already want to buy. Outdated and completely disingenuous. If they want to play that game, I'm also going to play as hard as I can. Turnabout is fair play.

dlthewave > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 15:57

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Are written claims made in an advertisement or displayed in the window of the car considered to be legally binding, even though they're not written into the purchase agreement? What about nonspecific phrases such as "excellent condition" and "meticulously maintained"?

Robert > Christopheroni 02/23/2015 at 15:58

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Long day at work. I'm sure this is meant to be a joke, but not getting it, unless you're saying buying a caris shady :) can you buy a new car from a non-dealer? if not, you mentioned all (normal) scenarios of buying a car. ugh, back to crunching numbers and writing macros

SteveLehto > dlthewave 02/23/2015 at 16:00

1

Most sales agreements specifically state that they do not encompass statements outside of the document. The simple answer is to ask if you can integrate them into the contract. If they are true, why not? As for the two phrases, no - those are sales puffery due to their subjective (and unmeasurable) nature.

TheBigCee > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 16:00

4

I think you mean moo point

vdxgvf > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 16:04

0

Start working at home with Google! It's by-far the best job I've had. Last Wednesday I got a brand new BMW since getting a check for $6474 this - 4 weeks past. I began this 8-months ago and immediately was bringing home at least $77 per hour. I work through this link, go to tech tab for work detail.

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Buckus > Christopheroni 02/23/2015 at 16:06

0

Ran when parked.

Chris Splendoria > Vin 02/23/2015 at 16:13

4

Probably don't want to talk to you at all, with that attitude.

To be really honest, when I was a floor salesperson, what I would have wanted to do is kick you into a fire.

schwartz > SteveLehto 02/23/2015 at 16:15

0

This is interesting post, I have always used a form purchased from a legal document site for a vehicle bill of sale. It troubles me that my bill of sale is not legally sound since it was not free. Here is the snippet from the warranties section.

SteveLehto > schwartz 02/23/2015 at 16:19

0

Are you an individual? In most states, the bill of sale and disclaimer are not needed unless you are a dealer. If you want to use an extraneous form, I'm not sure what harm the extraneous language would have.